Winemaker of his legendary family estate in Champagne: “There is always a lot expected of the younger generation”.
For the 31st interview in Le Figaro Vin’s series we pay our sixth visit to Champagne to meet Guillaume Selosse, #20, who is now at the helm of one of the region’s most sought-after estates. A model of discretion, he makes uniquely thrilling wines whose ratings continue to soar.
Domaine Jacques Selosse, founded by Guillaume’s grandfather, is situated in Avize, a small village in the Côte de Blancs. Known long ago as Ozannel-la-belle, Avize has been renowned since the 18th century for its well-balanced Blancs de Blancs champagnes, classified Grand Cru. Jacques Selosse settled here shortly after the Second World War in 1947 and, despite not coming from a family of winemakers, soon acquired some vines. In 1949 Jacques and his wife founded the estate that still bears his name, and the couple made their own wine for the first time in 1964. Ten years later their son, Anselme, joined the estate and embarked on an extended exploration of the methods and practices of viticulture and vinification. His never-ending quest for perfection lasted throughout his career. From 1990 to 1996 he applied the principles of organic farming, then graduated to a biodynamic approach. But from 2002 he distanced himself from the established norms of biodynamic doctrine, taking the view that we should not impose on nature. Over the last few years Anselme’s son, Guillaume, representing the third generation, has taken up the reins with verve.
Paradoxically, it was in Bordeaux that this new star of the Champagne winemaking galaxy experienced his true epiphany, while studying viticulture and oenology in Saint-Émilion. This was a carefully considered sideways step, which enabled Guillaume to meet young prospective winemakers from all around the world. It gave him a very different take on things than he could have acquired had he simply stayed on his home terroir. From his earliest childhood, the paternal reputation of the highly respected Anselme Selosse had cast a long shadow over the young Guillaume, who next decided to spend a year in Australia in order to come back to the estate much better equipped to forge his own path. From his very first vintages, by dint of close observation and sheer hard work, Guillaume has stamped his personality on the estate, and today he produces champagnes of incomparable vivacity.
Le Figaro Vin: How does it feel to be crowned a winemaking champion?
Guillaume Selosse: I don’t really see myself as a champion. One of the current struggles facing winemakers consists precisely in keeping a cool head. It is vital we always remember that wine is about shared values, not market values. We have to resist this focus on the market, even if we are, fortunately, starting to see it reach its limits, especially in Burgundy. The price curves are beginning to come down; it was getting to be obscene. The world of wine is changing now that, I believe, we have reached a tipping point.
What is your greatest source of pride?
My own cuvée Largillier, which I made without paternal support. I made it on my own, my father never entered the cellar, and his first taste of it was from the bottle. It is the first wine that I made entirely on my own.
Have you been training for long?
As a young boy, I used to run around in the cellar, climbing on the barrels, and spending Sundays with my father, who would tell me: “Smell the wine, open the valve”, and so on. I have always been in a winemaking environment.
Who is your mentor?
At the technical level, my father, because I am always picking his brain, and it’s with him that I have developed my awareness of all the factors that come into play. However, I have also gained insights from winemakers during my internships, especially from Benoît Lahaye (selected as winemaker of the year for 2021 by le Gault & Millau, ed.). But basically, it’s my father.
Is wine a team sport?
A winemaker is a conductor: you need a team that can follow your tune, otherwise, it doesn’t work. There has to be a symbiosis. We have a team of five working full time between the vineyard and in the cellar, plus two in the office, as well as my father and me.
What is the key to making a good wine? The terroir or the winemaker?
I think that the terroir is necessarily key, but the decisions taken during the growing season count for a lot. This is especially true for making white wine, where it all happens in the vineyard, through our decisions about pruning, disbudding, yields, and harvests. With red wines, it is easier to have an impact during vinification, but with whites, it’s much trickier.
To what do you owe your success?
To my approach to tasting wines, to my never getting fixated on a particular region or grape variety, and to my going to meet with winemakers everywhere in France and in Europe. Exchanging ideas and discussing things is crucial, including with winemakers facing very different challenges from ours. The climate is changing so much that in the future even producers of Côtes-du-Rhône could become a source of inspiration. For example, my father once took part in the grape harvests in the south, and the things he learned there were of invaluable help with the 2003 vintage.
Is your family proud of you?
I hope so, I do everything I can to make them proud of me. There is always a lot expected of the younger generation.
Your favourite colour?
Right now my most wonderful surprises come from reds, from Burgundian reds in particular.
Your hero among grape varieties?
Chardonnay.
Your favourite wine?
My favourite, for all seasons and every stage of a meal, is Les Carelles. It’s a wine that perfectly expresses where it comes from, with a slightly roasted side, which gives it a Burgundian edge.
Your favourite vintage?
2009, for which I had a role both in the harvests and in the vinifications. If 2008 is still a work in progress, 2009 is honest, regal, always transparent, and full of joy.
If your wine was a person, who would it be?
Curiously, I find it has an electric side to it, it’s off the beaten track, like a character on the fringes of society.
What are the best circumstances in which to taste your wine?
Surrounded by friends and family, with bites of Parmesan, setting things up for a wonderful night.
Who is your strongest competition?
The climate, including recurring spring frosts, as well as significant issues with water.
And the competition that you dread the most?
The process of bottling. As far as the harvest is concerned, we have made our decisions and we stick to them. In the cellar, we have to set up the fermentation process, achieve a certain specific gravity, and so on. It’s incredibly tricky to get it right and it’s the culmination of our entire year’s work, which makes it particularly stressful.
For what price would you be prepared to sell your estate?
I have such an emotional attachment to it that I would never want to sell it.
Who would be your ideal successor on the podium?
My children, Tara and Lazare, who are still very young. When it comes down to it, it will be whoever is the most passionate about it and doesn’t see it as something they are pressured into doing. I get that from my father, who never put pressure on me.
Managing Director and winemaker of Château Pichon Comtesse in Pauillac: “My wine is like Kate Bush”.
The 30th interview in Le Figaro Vin’s series takes us back to Bordeaux, to Pauillac, where Nicolas Glumineau, #21, creates exquisite wines with added soul. His answers reveal his insights into a winemaking profession that he has pursued for 20 years.
The vineyards of Château Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande stretch out across 102 hectares in the heart of the Pauillac appellation, close to Premier Grand Cru Château Latour. The vines have an average age of 35 years and stand on terroir comprised of fine Garonne gravel on a clay subsoil. These vines are made up of a combination of grape varieties, currently in transition, that will shortly consist of 75% Cabernet Sauvignon supplemented by Merlot and Cabernet Franc. The Rouzaud family – of Louis Roederer Champagnes – took over Pichon Comtesse in 2007, ensuring that the vision of those predecessors, who had created these wines over many decades, would be sustained. At the helm since 2012, Nicolas Glumineau is a man whose fascinating career path has made him an expert in high-precision blending, alongside his qualities of humility and humour. Every year he vinifies this exceptional Deuxième Grand Cru Classé with considerable panache.
Le Figaro Vin: How does it feel to be crowned a winemaking champion?
Nicolas Glumineau: I am certainly not a champion. I am a challenger, on behalf of myself, of Pichon, of the world of wine both here in Bordeaux and globally. I sincerely hope that 2022 doesn’t turn out to be the vintage of the century because we still have 78 vintages to go!
Have you been training for long?
For 20 years. My first vinification was at Château d’Escurac, with Jean-Marc Landureau (in the Médoc Appellation, ed.). Before that I wasn’t involved in the world of wine. I studied genetics and biochemistry at the University of Bordeaux, where I worked in Denis Dubourdieu’s laboratory and played around with Sauvignon Blanc wine yeasts, creating hybrids. That gave me the opportunity to develop a rigorous scientific approach and to practise experimentation.
Who is your mentor?
I have a number of them. First and foremost come my teams, because they help me to ask myself the right questions and to delve ever further into the meaning of wine and the work that we want to accomplish. Éric Boissenot is also a mentor: he has an extraordinary palate and is a man of great humility with a tremendous amount of knowledge. Jean-Baptiste Lécaillon and Frédéric Rouzaud (respectively Cellar Master and CEO of Maison Louis Roederer, which owns Pichon Comtesse, ed.) provide us with a framework that allows us a great deal of freedom, as well as some thought-provoking perspectives which help us keep improving.
What is the key to making a good wine? The terroir or the winemaker?
Terroir is a very French concept, with several different elements: the soil, the subsoil, the microclimate, the grape variety, the rootstock, and the human contribution, which come together as a unity that we call the terroir. So what is key here is the terroir, in all its complexity. Nature provides us with a score and our job is simply to interpret it.
To what do you owe your success?
To my wife and to my encounters with some very inspiring wines. And then a little work has also had a part to play!
Is your wife proud of you?
I hope so.
Who is your biggest supporter?
There are two of them. The first comprises the wine-lovers and the markets who are loyal to us. The second is Frédéric Rouzaud, who has invested a great deal in this property. Over and above his financial investment, he appreciates the time and energy required to implement a long-term strategy, and viticulture is always a long-term project. Time is a necessary luxury because it allows us to experiment, to understand, and to make the wine that we want to make.
Your favourite colour?
Fifty shades of green in the forest. When it comes to wine my favourite colour depends on what we are eating.
Your hero among grape varieties?
Cabernet Sauvignon. I find it has the completeness, all the aspects and subtleties that I look for when tasting a wine, the elegance and intensity in particular. While I also find these subtleties in other grape varieties, in my view Cabernet Sauvignon expresses them best. We have undertaken a huge re-planting job at Pichon Comtesse, which has involved increasing the proportion of Cabernet Sauvignon from 60% to 75%, at the expense of Merlot and Petit Verdot. When we have finished we will have around 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, between 15% and 20% Merlot, and some Cabernet Franc. That corresponds to what we have used in our blends over the last few years.
Your favourite wine?
I am very fond of a Diamond Creek label called Red Rock Terrace. It is a Napa wine, made from Cabernet Sauvignon and grown on a north-facing plot, which always has loads of style and elegance, and is serious without being too austere. It has a truly superb balance. I recommend the 2006.
Your favourite vintage?
In Bordeaux, 1989. And at Pichon, 2022 and 1989.
If your wine was a person, who would it be?
My wine is like Kate Bush because I find her elegant, powerful, sinuous, poetic, and unique.
What are the best circumstances in which to taste your wine?
Listening to music, in an isolated cabin, together with friends. We have made a playlist for our website with pieces of music for each vintage, whether jazz, rock, or classical. When tasting our 1989 I would listen to The Cure’s ‘Prayers for Rain’. It was a very dry year, so the song was a perfect counterpart.
And without friends?
You can enjoy it on your own, in a good leather armchair, with a decent hi-fi system, and most importantly, nothing else, no one else around, to ensure you can savour it undisturbed.
Have you ever thought about chemically enhancing yourself, or your wine?
My wine never but myself yes, with Mersault from Domaine Jean-François Coche-Dury!
Who is your strongest competition in Pauillac?
Force of habit. Viticulture today, even more than in the past, requires us to adapt, in the vineyard and in the cellar. That means constantly questioning what we are doing, being ready to experiment, and showing good judgment. Even when we are happy with the wine we have just produced we need to reflect on what we’ve done and ask if we could have done it better still. You can be very respectful of tradition, but that doesn’t mean simply sticking to tried and tested ways. You have to observe nature, remain very humble, and always think about how to improve and evolve. In Pauillac itself we don’t go in for competition so much as emulation. The most formidable rivals are the ones who are better than us. I have a great deal of respect for the way they work with their vines at Château Latour. We have plenty of things in common, including biodynamic and organic farming. And Château Lafite Rothschild has made some tremendous wines over recent vintages, 2022 and 2018 in particular.
And the competition that you dread the most?
My greatest fear today is that climate change gets even worse. That’s the real competition. Competition in the form of trying to match our rivals is really positive, it pushes us to do even better, but there is room for everyone. On the other hand, climate change means we have to work ever harder, and push the dial on our experiments ever further. I am afraid of the serious effect that climate change might have on the kind of wine that we can make in Pauillac. 2022 will be remembered as an extraordinary vintage, absolutely massive, which is a great thing. I love it because the Pichon Comtesse we made corresponds precisely to what we have wanted to make for years, in terms of balance, power, elegance, complexity, body, and sensuality. We also love it because we were the first to be surprised that the wine was so good. That means we were not in complete control. I will never forget how challenging we found it. We had to change how we did things almost every day. Just because 2022 is a great vintage doesn’t mean it was easy to make. But it’s a source of real joy, and that’s what makes every vintage different.
What is your greatest source of pride?
My children. And also my national first aid certificate!
What has been your most innovative strategy in the vineyard and in the cellar?
Socrates said: “All I know is that I know nothing.” Questioning everything is always the best strategy when it comes to tempering empiricism with an admixture of technology. Experimentation is always my best innovation and frequently results in less interference with the terroir. “Less is more” as they say. A good example is replacing tillage, which requires a lot of time and effort, with grass and plant cover. It’s a case of working the soil less in order to make it drain better and make it more alive. We realised that the less we worked the soil, the better it was for the vines. Working with biodynamics for the past 12 years has led us to revisit a number of established agricultural practices. In the final analysis you get higher quality production from a living soil, and when you have ripe grapes there is less need for extraction during vinification, because the balance of juice and wine is already there from the start. It is there in the fruit.
Who would be your ideal successor on the podium?
My successor will be ranked higher than I am, so I have two: Jean-Baptiste Lécaillon and Jean-Philippe Masclef, technical director of Haut Brion.
Founder and winemaker of his estate in Nuits-Saint-Georges: “I feel like an eternal beginner”.
The 29th interview in Le Figaro Vin’s series finds us once again in Burgundy where we meet Thibault Liger-Belair, #22, one of the most acclaimed winemakers in the region. His renowned estate, emblematic of the Côte de Nuits, lies at the heart of Nuits-Saint-Georges.
The Liger-Belair family has been a fixture in the world of great Burgundy wines for almost three centuries. However, Thibault Liger-Belair represents the first generation from his branch of the family to make his own wine. Founded in 1720 at Nuits-Saint-Georges, Les Établissements C. Marey was one of the most important wine-trading houses in Burgundy. In 1852 the Marey family joined forces, in business and through marriage, with Count Louis Liger-Belair. In much more recent times, after two and a half centuries in business, the famous Maison de Négoce went under in 1979, and what was left was sold in 1982 on the death of Xavier Liger-Belair. Xavier’s son, Vincent, then bought back the premises and maintained the Burgundian winegrowing estate whose lovely terroirs still remained in his branch of the family, namely Clos de Vougeot, Richebourg, and Les Saint-Georges. In 2001 Vincent’s son, Thibault, took over the vineyards and founded the winemaking estate, to which he gave his own name. We should be careful to distinguish it from Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair in Vosne-Romanée, whose owner, Count Louis-Michel Liger-Belair, is a distant cousin of Thibault’s, their respective great-grandfathers being brothers.
In his quest to give sensitive expression to his terroirs, Thibault has, over the years, developed his personal vision of the winemaking profession. In 2004 he started a trading operation to augment the range of his Côte de Nuits terroirs (the wines produced from the grapes he buys in carry the name ‘Successeurs’ in place of ‘Domaine’). His estate has been certified organic since 2005, and he has applied a biodynamic approach since 2004, albeit eschewing biodynamic certification in order to maintain an independent approach to this form of viticulture. He has also produced wines in Beaujolais since 2009, in the Moulin-à-Vent appellation, where he creates exquisite Gamays.
Le Figaro Vin: How does it feel to be crowned a winemaking champion?
Thibault Liger-Belair: I don’t feel like a winemaking champion, without pretending to false modesty. We are on a never-ending quest. Becoming a champion of wine is ultimately unattainable because we are always trying to do things better. A winemaker who thinks he has made it is a winemaker who should give up making wine, because he believes he has reached some kind of pinnacle. That is more than ever the case today, subject as we are to the effects of climate change. We have to keep looking for new solutions. I feel like an eternal beginner, albeit one who makes fewer mistakes than in the past because I have a slightly more intuitive grasp of things.
Have you been training for long?
I have been training for a long time, but there is still a long way to go. My training started from the moment that I started to taste wines with the idea of making them when I began my studies in 1991. I started training as an amateur, but since creating the estate in 2001 I have trained a bit more professionally and consistently. I took a big step forward when I was able to double my training regime. In 2009 I made my first vintage in Beaujolais, which gave me the opportunity to conduct two vinifications in two different terroirs. I then developed twice as fast because working with two different terroirs, climates, and soil structures allowed me to see things from a broader and deeper perspective.
Who is your mentor?
My mentor is my fear of making mistakes, and my determination to keep asking myself what I need to do to improve. I don’t have a mentor as such, but I do have people that I look up to, without idolising them. Our vocation is, first and foremost, intensely personal, founded in our desire to give something back through our wine. And the very foundation of our profession consists in the constant sharing of experience and ideas. The stupidest thing a winemaker can do is to declare they have a secret, particularly in a world in which human relationships are becoming more remote.
Is wine a team sport?
Of course. When you do it on your own you do it badly. When you do it with others you do it well. It’s all down to teamwork. Winemakers are frequently being filmed, photographed, or interviewed like today, but the reality behind the wines lies in the teams we choose to work with. We all work with a shared sense of purpose but everyone, with their unique personality, brings something individual to the table. I am fond of saying that we only have one mouth, but we have two ears. That surely tells us something.
What is the key to making a good wine? The terroir or the winemaker?
A great wine is a triptych. A terroir is like a lovely piece of music, a beautifully composed score, and the notes are the same for everyone. Then there are the tools, like Pinot Noir or Gamay, which are our musical instruments. Finally there is the interpreter, the musician or the winemaker. Even though we play the same notes, we will never produce identical results or emotions. I don’t know exactly why that is, but it is the complementarity of those three components that makes a great wine. I am against the idea that the terroir is what matters most. Every terroir has been planted by men and represents years of research, observation, and the desire for excellence. I give precedence to the men who decided to plant the terroirs in order to make great wines from them.
To what do you owe your success?
I am very open with respect to this question. In the first place I had the good luck to be born with a silver spoon in my mouth, because I have had the opportunity to work with great terroirs. Otherwise we would arguably not be doing this interview today. I believe that my success is also down to the fact that I have been lucky enough to do what I love, and to have a job which makes me happy to get up every morning – even if some days are easier than others. When you do what you love doing it’s no longer work: it’s continuing to grow and live out a passion.
Is your family proud of you?
Yes, I think so. I have an unusual background, in that my father had nothing to do with the world of wine. I and my cousin (Louis-Michel Liger-Belair of Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair, ed.) are the first generation of winemakers in our family. In the 1970s my grandfather had told my father: “Whatever you do, don’t go into wine, there is no future in it.” It was during the time of the OPEC oil crisis and wine sales suffered badly. The fact that we have got the family business back on the road and restored the entire property is the source of some family pride. As for myself, I am proud of it! Without false modesty, I am happy to be where we are today, even though we still have some way to go. I am proud that my family is proud of it.
Who is your biggest supporter?
My wife, who occasionally tells me that she admires what I am doing, although she never lets me get complacent! I think of all my customers who sometimes tell me that our wines have moved them, and that is our quest, our Grail. It is the love and happiness that we have managed to provide. In our profession there is an element of selfishness because we necessarily make wines for ourselves, which suit our own taste and represent who we are, while at the same time we have to demonstrate our generosity in the hope that our wine brings a great deal of pleasure to others. Obviously we make wine in order to earn our living, but in Burgundy we are lucky enough to get very good prices for our wines. That makes it even more imperative to do everything we can to justify those prices through the emotions and happiness that our wines can bring to our customers. That requires a number of sacrifices, but we make them for good reason.
Your favourite colour?
It’s blue, the blue of the foil capsules on my bottles, of the sky, of the sea. It’s a colour that makes people happy. It goes very well with my landlubber and my nautical sides. Blue is very soothing and comes in many shades.
Your hero among grape varieties?
A hero is someone who does something extraordinary when you are not expecting it. That rules out Pinot Noir because we always expect great things from it. So I would go for Gamay, which can take us much further than we would necessarily expect. Pinot Noir ousted the “disloyal” Gamay in 1395, at the behest of Philip the Bold (Duke of Burgundy, ed.). Gamay, when planted in high quality terroir, with vines cultivated with respect and grapes vinified and matured with care, produces great wines. But it’s about more than the grape variety, you have to plant them in the right place.
Your favourite wine?
Les Saint-Georges. It was my first cuvée in 2002, and the one that I have been fighting to get Grand Cru classification for since 2007. We have a real opening for this classification, and I am convinced we can achieve it and correct what is an anomaly within the next ten years or so. It is my heart’s terroir. Sometimes we don’t need to say any more than that to express our love.
Your favourite vintage?
2008. It’s not necessarily the vintage everyone would expect but it’s a vintage that really helped me develop my winemaking skills. It was really tricky, August was unusually wet, and together with our grape-pickers we ended up separating out every bunch, one by one. Between 2002 and 2007 I found making my wines quite stressful and experienced a lot of self-doubt. So I said to myself: “Thibault, you pretty much know how to make wine, if you make a mistake it’s not such a big deal, but all the same you are going to try to get it right because it’s your daughter Jeanne’s year of birth.” And something shifted. I understood that I couldn’t afford to be stressed because that affects the wine. Some vintages are easier than others, and 2008 wasn’t a vintage with great ageing potential, but when you taste the wines today they are amazingly good!
If your wine was a person, who would it be?
It’s a little bit like me, there is a certain resemblance there. Funnily enough, a customer said to me: “When people look at you, you make them think of wines that are full, rich, and concentrated, but when people taste your wines they find them, instead, delicate, elegant, and often highly distinctive.” People expect my wines to correspond to my external appearance – to my physique in particular. But my wines probably express what I am like inside.
What are the best circumstances in which to taste your wine?
With friends, never on your own. What works best is to taste it slightly chilled to begin with, so that you give it time to warm up and then get to experience all it’s aromatic variations and a gradual intensification.
Have you ever thought about chemically enhancing yourself, or your wine?
A decent shot of red to get going, that’s a good drug! Yes, I have thought of adulterating my wines in the past, it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise. Like many others I have suffered from doubts. I would try adding a bit of this and a bit of that, but it never worked. On each occasion there was something wrong with the harmony of the wine. I tried things out, I made mistakes, and I learnt from them. Nowadays, while I don’t seek to make “natural” wines, I try to make wines as naturally as possible. Even if my wines can show a degree of austerity when they are young, they will mellow as they age. Wine is a tribute to time, it exists in real time, you cannot cut corners and speed things up or slow things down.
For what price would you be prepared to sell your estate?
I am not prepared to sell my estate. It is my life, along with my family. It’s my working instrument. What would I do without it, were I to sell it? I don’t know how to do anything else; I am not someone who is especially cultured or intelligent. I just try to make a good job of what I love doing. If I were ever forced to sell it would be for the market price. We are the owners of our vineyards on paper only. The reality is that we are merely custodians before we pass them on to future generations. An estate is always being prepared for those who come next, but if my children don’t want to take it over, all the better for them, so long as they follow their hearts. Perhaps they will come back to it, perhaps not. I don’t want to tell them what to do, it would make me too miserable if they were not as happy as I am. As for the vines, they will always be there. I am an eternal optimist!
Who is your strongest competition?
I am always competing against myself because, when I taste my wines, I check for any defects before I look for their good qualities. We only have allies in our profession: in particular, the soil, the climate, and all the wildlife. And even when we experience a climate event like the frosts of 2021, we must always remember to be grateful. We work with an unknown and higher power that we cannot control, and when nature doesn’t help us then it’s up to us to help ourselves.
Which competition do you dread the most?
The biggest struggle is to preserve the freshness in our wines, so that they continue to be like Burgundy wines and are not completely altered by an excessively hot climate. It’s about our capacity to adapt to climate change. We shouldn’t complain about global warming, we have to understand why it’s happening and do everything in our power to prevent it warming up too quickly. Mother Teresa used to say: “We realise that what we are doing is only a drop in the ocean. But without this drop the ocean would be missing something.” On the estate the winery consumes minimal electricity and water. We treat the water in order to return it to nature in the same condition that we found it. We try to ensure that 95% of our materials are recyclable. All these are tiny drops of water, not a revolution. Soil is the most efficient absorber of carbon dioxide, so we should treat it as an incredible factory for capturing the damaging emissions caused by our modern society and then we could really achieve some positive results. For the past 50 years we have focused on the needs of our plants and not on the needs of our soil. Our knowledge of the soil is very limited, we currently only understand 15% of what is going on there. Our work has straightforward aims: to create real freshness in our wines, to produce appetising, mouth-watering wines, and to preserve the fertility of the soil. When all is said and done we are farmers, people of the soil, and we have to concentrate on the requirements of the soil, we have to get back to the fundamentals.
What is your greatest source of pride?
To have achieved a balance between my professional life and my personal life, because it’s a job that can be very demanding and one which requires quite a few personal sacrifices. I have got a team of great people around me, and I wouldn’t be where I am today without my family behind me. When you receive you have to give, it’s a fundamental balance.
What has been your most innovative strategy in the vineyard and in the cellar?
I’ll start with the cellar. In the first place, we are determined not to incorporate anything into the wine which is not naturally occurring, namely sulphur. We have stopped using petrochemically-produced sulphur-dioxide and we now work solely with native sulphur. That has fundamentally changed the appearance of our wines and we no longer feel we are harming the wine like before. On top of that, we have just completed the renovation of the entire winery. You have to work really hard in the vineyard in order to be as lazy as possible in the winery and avoid an excessive workload when it comes to extraction. Our new tanks, based on the golden ratio that we introduced in 2022, create Brownian motion through temperature exchanges between the exterior and interior. For me that is a genuine innovation. As for the vineyard, by contrast, our approach has been to take a step back to the older ways of doing things. I have practised biodynamic cultivation for quite a few years now, having started in 2004. We applied for certification in 2007 but I turned it down in 2012. I found it required a dogmatic approach that jarred with my convictions. I believe in two things in life, science and God. There are lots of good things in biodynamics, but we should not slavishly follow agronomic principles, we should observe them in practice in order to come to an intuitive understanding of what works. I don’t want to follow prescribed formulae.
Who would be your ideal successor on the podium?
Someone with the same passion, whose eyes gleam when they talk about wine. Someone who feels good outdoors, among the vines, and, above all, someone who makes wines that are very different from mine. Someone with awareness, who is sure of their taste, with the strength of mind to do things their own way and not just follow in my footsteps. I am not looking to be a mentor, but if they need me I will be there!
Owners and winemakers of their family estate in Roussillon: “In their finesse and their personality our wines are like women”.
For the 28th interview in Le Figaro Vin’s series we pay our first visit to Roussillon to meet the Danjou brothers, Benoît and Sébastien, #24. Domaine Danjou-Banessy, in Espira-de-l’Agly, is poetically situated between the precipitous slopes of the Pyrenees and the foothills of the Corbières. The estate is home to several generations of vines between 15 and 120 years old, spread over a mosaic of soils that put the Climats of Burgundy in the shade.
This is a family history that has skipped a generation. Artisans and farmers in their souls, Benoît and Sébastien Danjou joined forces to take over their grandfather’s 32 hectares of vines, surrounded by 20 hectares of woodland, forest, and moor. As Sébastien made clear, although their grandfather had always treated the land and nature with respect, “the estate was showing signs of serious neglect”. For all the charm of its hundred-year-old vines, their productivity had steadily declined. “We have kept the old vines in good condition,” added Sébastien, “while cutting out all forms of aggressive intervention”. Now certified organic, and cultivating an area reduced to 20 hectares, the two brothers produce magnificent Grenaches, Carignans, Muscats, and other southern grape varieties, and remain unwavering in their refusal to rest on their laurels. They are two of the most talented winemakers in Roussillon.
Le Figaro Vin: How does it feel to be crowned a winemaking champion?
Sébastien and Benoît Danjou: We are delighted, but being champions is not core to our philosophy. We don’t want to be famous, we just want recognition, above all from our peers. We are not looking to make the best wine in the world.
What is your greatest source of pride?
To have managed to carry on working in the simplest way possible, with the mindset of artisans and peasants. The latter were looked down on, unjustifiably, and we are determined to stick with this approach, working exclusively with what we produce on the estate, without buying any grapes in.
Have you been training for long?
Since childhood. We haven’t had any academic training. And we know that an entire lifetime of training isn’t enough – there is always something new to learn.
Who is your mentor?
Surprisingly we have never had one. We spent ten years overhauling a family estate and never had the time to check out what was going on around us, either locally or further afield. Without a mentor, we had to learn from our mistakes. Since we became established we have opened our minds through a number of visits to estates where we have found common ground or, conversely, fundamental differences in approach.
Is wine a team sport?
Absolutely. Our team is very small but essential.
What is the key to making a good wine? The terroir or the winemaker?
The terroir, without any reservation, and we try to express it as precisely as we can.
To what do you owe your success?
To numerous encounters which have helped spread the word about our wines. We are regularly classified in the natural wine category, although we don’t claim any affiliation. We do feel a connection to it, but it’s become a kind of compartment, with an increasingly fuzzy definition, in which we feel less and less at home. It’s true that natural wines are proliferating, and that’s a good thing, but plenty end up down the drain!
Is your family proud of you?
Yes, although none of them would ever say so.
Your favourite colour?
Let’s say not too white, as that suggests the need for clarification, and not too red, as that indicates excessive extraction.
Your favourite grape variety?
Carignan, which is a grape variety for the future and one that has been widely disparaged for its rusticity. It has just been poorly understood. Carignan is a late variety, well-adapted to climate change. We would agree that it is hardy, from a physiological perspective, but it has a lovely acidity. It’s the Roussillon grape variety that deserves wider recognition, whether as Carignan Blanc, Gris, or Noir.
Your favourite wine?
For me (Sébastien, ed.) it’s Estaca, and for my brother Espurna. We are deeply attached to all our wines, but these two are made from very old vines and we feel indebted to those who worked them before us. They have been through more than 100 prunings and we are full of admiration and respect for their longevity.
Your favourite vintage?
2020, a really complete vintage.
If your wine was a person, who would it be?
We hope that our wine resembles Roussillon, and we are always saying that in their finesse and their personality, our wines are like women. They don’t parade their muscles; they aren’t show animals with broad shoulders!
What are the best circumstances in which to taste your wine?
In company, in any number of situations. A friend likes to tell us that there are no great wines, just great bottles. A bottle is always the coming together of a time, a place, and people, whether previously acquainted or not.
Who is your strongest competition?
This year we have had quite a struggle with the climate, but we have a great deal of respect for it.
Which competition do you fear the most?
We have some problems with water, especially in the summer of course, but no particular time is really more testing than others. Here in the south we are not afraid of summer drought.
For what price would you be prepared to sell your estate?
We couldn’t put a price on it. We appreciate, nevertheless, that vineyards are subject to major speculation. However, that is not such a bad thing since it’s reassuring to know that our work has a tangible value, even if the speculation sometimes verges on the ridiculous.
What is your greatest trophy?
We still have plenty of room to improve. We are satisfied but never complacent. That’s what drives us on a daily basis.
Who would be your ideal successor on the podium?
We would be happy for our children to take over, but they are still young. This job is a true vocation, and we are not going to push them. We would like them to share the same values. Passing the baton is something fundamental and we won’t indulge in hypotheticals. Winegrowing is transgenerational and we have to accept that each generation will have a different way of doing things, but we would like to hand the estate on to people who have truly understood our work.